lecture

[eversoclever]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I wasnt really applying this to commerce, but now that you mention it, isnt that how we came to sell our souls to Walmart? Isnt a globally competetive marketplace what brought us a whole lotta cheap crap from China and the exploitation of workers all over the world? Competition? I still maintain its a fallacy that it makes us strive for greatness.


And I guess I'm one of those parents. I'm a bit hurt by the assumptions in that remark.

Do I not keep reiterating over and over that it's our responsibility to provide guidance and instruction on refined competition? There is no fallacy in regards to the good things competition builds and uncovers, so long as you remain a *good* competitor. Our competitive instinct needs to evolve, not disappear.

No need to be hurt by the remark, I certainly don't think less of you for your methodology, and I absolutely stand by the way in which I said it. I'm just not of that camp, and I think it's absolutely fair to mention that I don't subscribe to that philosophy after you brought it up. In the same breath, I could have been bothered by your mention of how I was “fooling myself“ or “pathologizing“ my kid, but I didn't mention it because I'm trying to keep things above the fray.

[Ana]

Originally Posted by eversoclever

In the same breath, I could have been bothered by your mention of how I was “fooling myself“ or “pathologizing“ my kid, but I didn't mention it because I'm trying to keep things above the fray.

Except I didnt say YOU were fooling yourself or pathogizing YOUR kid. I also didnt imply them on you in the way that you rather directly implied I was one of those parents. The comments were made in very different contexts, but it may have been helpful to me to know you had internalized them that way, so its a shame you didnt say so at the time.

[dressage mom]

I'm trying to see where you're coming from, esc, with respect to competition and how it's necessarily (or not? I'm not sure because the conversation has evolved so drastically!) related to school and/or standardized testing.

In that regard, I see the WalMart scenario being played out -- that immersing our kids in a globalized standard of “competition“ through rigid standards and testing isn't *really* for their own goods, even though it is professed to be. It's for the good of the system, again - it is the institution that stands to benefit, not the children.

I think you can HAVE what your refined version of competition is, without the institutionalized version of it. I'm thinking here of the very popular sport of *ahem* dressage, where there IS very strict “competition“ in the show ring, but the only real person you are competing with is yourself. That to better yourself and score well, you have to be committed to improving yourself, mentally and physically, and the true nature of dressage is all about the journey to perfection, not about the perfection in and of itself, because it will never be attained (who can attain “perfection“?) ....

In any case, I see that in this type of competitive spirit, there needs to be a passion that inflames you first, a drive to be a better, quieter, more balanced, more complete rider -- it really has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else who may be riding next to you. It's all about internal motivation. And where does that come from? Certainly not an institution or anyone pressing me to “do better“. I already do my best. That's all any of us know how to do. It's cultivating that spirit within ourselves to achieve the most we can, regardless of what external forces are there.

Encouragement? Yes, sure. But coercion? Never. At least not in my book.

[eversoclever]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Except I didnt say YOU were fooling yourself or pathogizing YOUR kid. I also didnt imply them on you in the way that you rather directly implied I was one of those parents. The comments were made in very different contexts, but it may have been helpful to me to know you had internalized them that way, so its a shame you didnt say so at the time.

No, I don't think they were made in different contexts. I think you are choosing to take something personally. And no, I didn't internalize them because we're having a discussion. Just saying, if you want to use pointed language you shouldn't act all offended when it's returned to you.

[eversoclever]

Originally Posted by dressage mom

I'm trying to see where you're coming from, esc, with respect to competition and how it's necessarily (or not? I'm not sure because the conversation has evolved so drastically!) related to school and/or standardized testing.

In that regard, I see the WalMart scenario being played out -- that immersing our kids in a globalized standard of “competition“ through rigid standards and testing isn't *really* for their own goods, even though it is professed to be. It's for the good of the system, again - it is the institution that stands to benefit, not the children.

I think you can HAVE what your refined version of competition is, without the institutionalized version of it. I'm thinking here of the very popular sport of *ahem* dressage, where there IS very strict “competition“ in the show ring, but the only real person you are competing with is yourself. That to better yourself and score well, you have to be committed to improving yourself, mentally and physically, and the true nature of dressage is all about the journey to perfection, not about the perfection in and of itself, because it will never be attained (who can attain “perfection“?) ....

In any case, I see that in this type of competitive spirit, there needs to be a passion that inflames you first, a drive to be a better, quieter, more balanced, more complete rider -- it really has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else who may be riding next to you. It's all about internal motivation. And where does that come from? Certainly not an institution or anyone pressing me to “do better“. I already do my best. That's all any of us know how to do. It's cultivating that spirit within ourselves to achieve the most we can, regardless of what external forces are there.

Encouragement? Yes, sure. But coercion? Never. At least not in my book.

Well it's a good thing I can have my refined version of competition, because I intend to. I'm actually not at all thrilled with the idea of my kids being put through the institutional ringer, but that doesn't mean I reject all of the principles of discipline. I think I'm just not as hardcore as you gals. And that's OK, we all have to find our own rhythm.

Mild coercion = intense encouragement as far as I'm concerned. I do think sometimes we need a wake up call or pep talk to do something we're hesitating to attempt or complete, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I do prefer inspiration to 'yer doin' it,' but I'm sure there will be instances of the latter. I don't know, good thing I still have some time to mull it over.

I really like what you're saying about competitive spirit. I think ideally that is exactly what we should strive for. But I'm not against sports or academic pursuits where we compete against each other. But everything you said about cultivating the spirit, yes. Love that.

[eversoclever]

Hecate, let's just clear this up, because I don't want you to feel sore.

Originally Posted by eversoclever

I'm not of the mindset that coercion is always a dirty word like I know some parents are. Mild coercion can be healthy and encouraging, and I'll likely use it. In fact, when it comes to potty training, I already do.

I didn't say “YOU“ either, dude. Seriously. I don't know why you're upset by this. Totally didn't intend to throw it at you like a rock. And I would cop to rock throwing! But in this instance, not at all. Just 'taking hard' as we used to say in debate.

[dressage mom]

LOL, yes, you can have it! It's yours to keep.

I am not very competitive at all, never have been. I'm not one of those rah rah sporty types, and while my dd will be signed up for soccer again this year, I will be the one sitting on a blanket with my book in hand.

Now, passion? Yes. I have that, about many of things. But I remember cultivating my passions later in life, after I had sort of come to my calling. The courses I took in University gave me passion -- I could have done without the testing and the grades because the subject matter alone drove me to read, and research, and write endlessly on topics I never tired from. Again ... for ME, it wasn't about comparing myself to others, but in the end I got awesome marks because I drove MYSELF to do well, just with having a true intensity for the subjects I was studying.

And it's why out of all the horse sports I was drawn to dressage. While I wouldn't say there is NO competition, it is derived from a place within, it comes from a centering of oneself, and the willingness to admit imperfection but to keep striving to do better, for the good of the rider, and for the good of the horse. It's about partnership, completely and wholly becoming one, with another being -- the horse, obviously -- so that there is art and beauty in the outcome. That is the passion, that is what I strive for in my sport.

And while I get what you're saying about “mild coercion“ -- I do, because that describes my mother to a tee ... heck, maybe a bit beyond “mild“ -- I'm not sure I am quite on board with it. And like you say, that's okay, I'm not looking to change you or anyone else; I simply don't see the need for it, when I know that in my own personal experience, my passion and motivation for things NEVER came from external sources, at all. In fact, horses were strongly DIScouraged in my life. Imagine that, lol. And I left the courses my parents felt I *should* be studying in Uni (to get a good job, yknow!) to pursue frivolous pursuits that led to, well, certainly not a job lmao! But did it matter? I don't think it did; in the end I learned to learn, I learned to undertand that to follow your heart is what is most important, and that grades or “outcomes“ don't necessarily mean that much, in the end.

Boy. This thread has veered completely off course, eh?

[momx2]

Originally Posted by eversoclever

But I'm not of the mindset that coercion is always a dirty word like I know some parents are. Mild coercion can be healthy and encouraging, and I'll likely use it.

Well, I had to look up the definition to make sure I was understanding right, and I believe I'm one of those parents.....and don't mind a bit! lol Coercion,by definition, just isn't that nice.



I'm not convince that competition is needed to better oneself, specially within the context of elementary school work.

I understand where you are coming from, that it is a driving force to do better...but more under the context of what dressagemom said, competing against your personal best.

Also friendly competition is quite fun, like playing sports, chess, games...things like that. But I imagine it's only fun if you are choosing to participate.

[Ana]

Originally Posted by eversoclever

Hecate, let's just clear this up, because I don't want you to feel sore.



I didn't say “YOU“ either, dude. Seriously. I don't know why you're upset by this. Totally didn't intend to throw it at you like a rock. And I would cop to rock throwing! But in this instance, not at all. Just 'taking hard' as we used to say in debate.

I'm not really upset or sore about this. It felt like a dig, so I said so. If it wasnt - fine, we're good.

[eversoclever]

Originally Posted by momx2

Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force.

Well, I had to look up the definition to make sure I was understanding right, and I believe I'm one of those parents.....and don't mind a bit! lol Coercion,by definition, just isn't that nice.

Uncool. I don't think of any of you who abstain from the use of pressuring your kids as *those people*, and I'm certainly resenting these implications. I didn't say anything wrong, I stand by that, and I'm pretty annoyed. One might call it 'unfriendly competition.' And it's lame.

Mildly pressuring a child doesn't always make you a mean, horrible person IMO.

Originally Posted by momx2

I'm not convince that competition is needed to better oneself, specially within the context of elementary school work.

I understand where you are coming from, that it is a driving force to do better...but more under the context of what dressagemom said, competing against your personal best.

Also friendly competition is quite fun, like playing sports, chess, games...things like that. But I imagine it's only fun if you are choosing to participate.

Yeah, of course, friendly competition is a good way to put it. But FTR, I don't even see how it's arguable that competition doesn't improve people and standards. The conversation obviously evolved beyond the focus on standardized testing on elementary school students. Still, I think children are perfectly capable of learning about the proper way to compete, and how to hold tight to personal values whilst competing. In fact, I think it's quite necessary to do so.

[doulamom]

For a long time I used to eschew competition completely and was all about cooperative play and sports. I think there are some pretty awful examples of competition in our society and there is too big of an emphasis on it. I am not sure I feel that competition is always bad anymore. I think in its mildest forms it can be a good thing.

I do think I understand what you are saying EVSC and in all honesty, I think you, DM and Hecate are saying something fairly similar. That passion needs to be the prime motivator and that the 'push' should come from the individual and intrinsic motivation. Where you differ, is that you see some 'light' pressure as not entirely evil or bad and perhaps helpful, where DM and Hecate don't.

I don't think you are that far apart in your thinking. Personally I have never been much into competition but I do enjoy being encouraged and pushed further by coaches and running partners. Even in races, people presume that you are racing against others, and if you are at the 'top tier' you likely are, but even for them and for most of us a race is all about doing your personal best. Reaching further and deeper then you have before. I love that feeling and the personal satisfaction that comes from that. I discover that I have more in me with some help from others. But the 'pressure' has to come from the right place - a place of encouragement, belief and respect in me and not some outside thinking of what I should accomplish.

But I think the competition that happens in school is entirely different. It isn't about people doing their personal best or what they want to do. Intead it is almost entirely externally motivated and the comparisons that are made set people up to fail not to succeed. Or for a few to succeed within a narrow box. In that regards, I don't think competition is a good thing at all.

[momx2]

Originally Posted by eversoclever

Uncool. I don't think of any of you who abstain from the use of pressuring your kids as *those people*, and I'm certainly resenting these implications. I didn't say anything wrong, I stand by that, and I'm pretty annoyed. One might call it 'unfriendly competition.' And it's lame.

Mildly pressuring a child doesn't always make you a mean, horrible person IMO.

Didn't mean to be “uncool“ (actually not too worried about being cool or not!). As I said, I looked up the definition because I thought it perhaps wasn't exactly what I thought it was.....but it ended up being what I thought it was. I will take the definition out if you are bothered that much by it. Coercion is a strong word, it is not nice, but you used it.....you didn't say “mildly pressuring“.

I don't think I said anything wrong either.

I didn't mean to say anyone was horrible, I'm sorry you feel that way. I said it was “not nice“......but we all have our days of being not nice I'm sure. (I would agree with your other word, coercion is kind of mean!)

I'm guilty of pressuring my children in a certain direction, I try not to do it but am realistic to what I have done in the past. I would not say I coerced them, because ultimately they have a choice, they know it too as my pressuring tactics usually has not worked to the outcome I desired.....hence why I don't do it anymore.

[momx2]

Originally Posted by doulamom

But I think the competition that happens in school is entirely different. It isn't about people doing their personal best or what they want to do. Instead it is almost entirely externally motivated and the comparisons that are made set people up to fail not to succeed. Or for a few to succeed within a narrow box. In that regards, I don't think competition is a good thing at all.

Nicely put doulamom. This is what I was thinking when saying competition is not needed in school.

[Ana]

Originally Posted by doulamom

I do think I understand what you are saying EVSC and in all honesty, I think you, DM and Hecate are saying something fairly similar. That passion needs to be the prime motivator and that the 'push' should come from the individual and intrinsic motivation. Where you differ, is that you see some 'light' pressure as not entirely evil or bad and perhaps helpful, where DM and Hecate don't.

I don't think you are that far apart in your thinking.

I agree. And said as much a few pages back.

My biggest point of disagreement in this thread is not with whatever people choose to do with their own kids - because I honestly dont think offering smarties for using the toilet is going to ruin anyone.

[eversoclever]

Originally Posted by momx2

Didn't mean to be “uncool“ (actually not too worried about being cool or not!). As I said, I looked up the definition because I thought it perhaps wasn't exactly what I thought it was.....but it ended up being what I thought it was. I will take the definition out if you are bothered that much by it. Coercion is a strong word, it is not nice, but you used it.....you didn't say “mildly pressuring“.

No, Hecate said coercion, I commented on it. I didn't mean to crack open worms. I do think it's definitely uncool to mischaracterize someone's thoughts after they have clarified them, yep. Surprisingly I wasn't bothered by you quoting the definition, lol. But that was my only frustration and I'm over it.

Originally Posted by momx2

I don't think I said anything wrong either.

I didn't mean to say anyone was horrible, I'm sorry you feel that way. I said it was “not nice“......but we all have our days of being not nice I'm sure. (I would agree with your other word, coercion is kind of mean!)

I'm guilty of pressuring my children in a certain direction, I try not to do it but am realistic to what I have done in the past. I would not say I coerced them, because ultimately they have a choice, they know it too as my pressuring tactics usually has not worked to the outcome I desired.....hence why I don't do it anymore.

I'm nice to my kids, generally. Use of coercion doesn't = mean, awful parent. It can, definitely. I think my mom was a frustrated parent and a coercive parent, and those things combined made me fear her a lot of the time. And I don't want to go down that road with my kids.

As for what doula said about competition in school -- that's a huge reason why we're opting out. I still think competition is great in small doses, but I'm definitely troubled by the lack of adaptation to different learning processes within institutions. If they offered a way to foster growth in divergent paths, it could eventually move towards competitive practice being taken seriously in areas rather than RRR. And maybe that would lend itself towards cultural value of these other, different strength profiles. I mean, forget standardized tests, I don't think my kid could handle sitting in his desk for more than 5 minutes.