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Thread: Streetcar shooting

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by LondonerMom View Post
    Oh come on, there were at least 10 officers with their guns already pointed at him. It was not like a one-on-one scenario. The police had the upper hand without a shadow of a doubt. The videos do not show him lunging or swinging the knife at them. Thank God for cell phones and people brave enough to record these events as they unfold. Otherwise people - including police officers - would be getting away with a lot of injustice in this world.
    100% this

    between the amount of cops and oh yeah a second set of open door I can not understand why they could rush the doors and get him with out killing him
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurensmom View Post
    So, then would your posts show anti-police sentiment then? Or, is it just anti-laurensmom sentiment? Since you seem so focused on drawing a line between my opinion and your opinion that I am "defending" the police?

    I think that the shooting is justified. That is my opinion. Is that "defending" the police? If so, I guess I am. Feel free to point out the "hypocrisy" of that then if it makes you feel better I have no idea if 9 shots and the taser was justified or not.

    This topic is getting old though. Think what you will about my "bias" or "defenSe" of the police. I've made my opinion on it clear. I'm not going to continue to debate this with you.

    Wow. Thanks. Had to get a little spelling dig in there. Mature, really mature.


  3. #48
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    love this

    Sammy Yatim is Edmond Yu: Fiorito | Toronto Star

    n 1997, it happened to Edmond Yu, in circumstances that are eerily similar to those involving Sammy Yatim, except that Edmond had a hammer and not a knife.
    Video

    Outrage over Sammy Yatim shooting fueled by videos: expert

    Outrage over Sammy Yatim shooting fueled by videos: expert
    Thousands march for Sammy Yatim

    Thousands march for Sammy Yatim

    Sammy had no history of mental illness.

    Nevertheless, here is the text of recommendation number 12 made by the coroner’s jury after the inquest into Edmond Yu’s death, with specific reference to the establishment of a Crisis Resolution Course for police officers; it stipulates that the course should include, but not be limited to, the following issues:

    “A. Every opportunity should be taken to convert an unplanned operation into a planned operation.

    “B. Unless impractical to do so, a ‘cordon and containment’ approach should be adopted.

    “C. That the aim of crisis resolution should be de-escalation and the resolution of situations without physical force.

    “D. That the ‘first contact’ and ‘time talk and tactics’ approach should be used by police whenever possible and that ‘active listening’ be stressed as a skill that officers must develop.

    “E. The fear and apprehension experienced by officers as a result of previous experiences, stereotyping or lack of knowledge, whether about mental illness, race, culture or other factors.

    “F. The fear and apprehension which persons involved with the police may feel as a result of previous experiences, stereotyping or lack of knowledge, particularly due to mental illness, racial or cultural background.

    “G. That police officers, whenever possible, should maintain a sufficient reactionary gap to give them the time to disengage, tactically reposition themselves and or react in such a way which prevents a situation from escalating from the verbal to the violent.”
    from the article.

    Now I remember another reason why I said Edmund yu earlier its the same division that shot edmund yu that shot this other man.

    they did an inquest in mr.yu's death and came up with recommendations that were very clearly not followed how many more folks are gonna be shot before Toronto police follows thier own inquest recommendations?

    Oh I know probably never cause those who have mental illness or are acting erratically seem to be considered disposable and not worth trying to calm down and use crisis intervention techniques with.

    As for tactics and containment, there is a panel on a streetcar that hides a switch that closes the streetcar doors. You can flick a switch on and off.
    another awesome point in the article the front doors of a street car be closed from the outside

    i also like this article

    Sick to death of this story, many times over: DiManno | Toronto Star

  4. #49
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    I am on the fence about this. He should of dropped the knife. My dh is very pro police and he isn't sure it that person should of been shot. I hope a really good investigation is done and everyone gets some answers.
    Proud mom to ds born Sept. 2009 and dd born May 2012

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  6. #51
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    I agree with LM that it is all too easy to be an armchair quarterback in a situation like this. We can look at the video in the comfort of our living room while the kid and the police were living it with all the stress and adrenaline it entailed. We can't discount the effect of all that.
    My opinion is the officer likely made a judgement call and felt there was danger enough to shoot or perhaps he panicked. Nine times does seem extreme and I wonder if he wasn't aware how many shots he fired.
    I think it's important to keep in mind, TO officers see the same stuff day in and day out, and it wears on them. No matter how much experience or training they have, they never truly know when a situation is going to turn and a lot of their job relies on judgement. I'm not discounting what happened, only saying I can understand how one poor decision on the officer's part can have terrible consequences. But we pay them to make those decisions in hopes they will keep us safe. I think that is likely what this cop was doing. He didn't wake up that morning and decide he wanted to shoot somebody, he got caught up in a situation he felt was unsafe or he couldn't handle. I don't know.
    However, I do think it is important to question police actions. Of course it is, and brutality like Sittingpretty stated does happen without a doubt. There are bad cops just like any profession. Perhaps more so because they see a lot of the same stuff over and over and I do think it changes their perceptions of people in general. There are also good ones out there that go into policing for the right reasons. But in this case, I'm not sure there is enough there to make a determination either way based on a video alone.
    I'd say the suspension is likely political at this point. Can you imagine the outcry if he wasn't?
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  7. #52
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    As of this moment, it is my opinion that the situation was handled poorly.
    I agree 9 shots and a taser seem excessive... I agree that the police should have divided and taken the bus by force, putting 3 officers threw the back and 3 officers threw the front. They would have had a clear advantage and any advance made by the offender could still have been stopped by a police taser or by gunshot (this way too they would have been close enough to shoot and avoid killing the kid or perform life saving measures after 1 shot). I don't think there was any need to shoot before hand, let alone 9 times - however I wasn't there and haven't yet watched the videos, so I'm responding based on 1 article I read this morning.

    It was stated in the article that the officer was suspended while an investigation ensued to determine if this is a case of excessive force or not. It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out.
    Last edited by IsisBaily; 07-31-2013 at 10:09 AM.


  8. #53
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    I have seen the videos, watched the news reports and read the articles.

    From the very first time I saw the initial video I was shocked and horrified that the police didn't seem to attempt to defuse the situation in any way.

    I expect the police to act to keep the public safe. I include that troubled young man (with no history of violent behavour) as part of the public.

    There is a certain amount of danger that comes with being a police officer, and I would hope that all officers know that before they join a police force.

    Before watching the video I wouldn't have thought that a police officer would have shot a man with a knife 9 times, out of fear for his own safety. If this is indeed "procedure" for the police - I think maybe procedure should be changed.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurensmom View Post
    Actually, I have yet to give my point of view on this one.

    Here are the facts.

    His age is irrelevant, an person with a knife on a street car IS a threat, regardless of age. He got shot by police, who were trying to protect themselves and the general public. He died. None of us were there and none of us know exactly what transpired, regardless of what we THINK we see on random video footage.

    My point of view is.....I would have shot him myself if I felt that he was a threat to me or someone near me and I had a gun. No doubt about it.

    IMO he was justified in the shooting. The suspect advanced with a knife after being instructed not to. Was he justified in shooting 9 times, No idea. But I do know that there are countless examples of someone who is scared and adrenaline filled shooting many times more than they remember because of the fear they are feeling at the time. Maybe that happened? IDK I wasn't there. I am not here to defend anyone, nor to vilify someone. Its easy to be an armchair quarterback after the event, but unless you've been in the situation, you really can't say what you'd do.

    ETA-given the protests etc I am not surprised the officer has been suspended, for his own safety. In no way is that indicative of wrongdoing.
    22 cops and 1 found it necessary to shot. So he shot the same person 9 times.
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    I just noticed you forgot that fact.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    I'd say the suspension is likely political at this point. Can you imagine the outcry if he wasn't?
    The suspension is actually mandated at this point, at least until the SIU investigation is complete, because all the other officers need to be interviewed etc first and it would be a conflict of interest for him to be at work. Additionally, I think in this case his safety is also a concern (from public vigilantes).
    "Anything is better than lies and deceit". Leo Tolstoy

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by IsisBaily View Post
    As of this moment, it is my opinion that the situation was handled poorly.
    I agree 9 shots and a taser seem excessive... I agree that the police should have divided and taken the bus by force, putting 3 officers threw the back and 3 officers threw the front. They would have had a clear advantage and any advance made by the offender could still have been stopped by a police taser or by gunshot (this way too they would have been close enough to shoot and avoid killing the kid or perform life saving measures after 1 shot). I don't think there was any need to shoot before hand, let alone 9 times - however I wasn't there and haven't yet watched the videos, so I'm responding based on 1 article I read this morning.

    It was stated in the article that the officer was suspended while an investigation ensued to determine if this is a case of excessive force or not. It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out.
    Bahahahaha! You have been watching too many police TV shows. In your situation, at least 3 officers would likely be stabbed. And, the officers coming in the back, shot by the ones coming in the front. Carry on.
    Last edited by laurensmom; 07-31-2013 at 10:57 AM.
    "Anything is better than lies and deceit". Leo Tolstoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by my2babies View Post
    22 cops and 1 found it necessary to shot. So he shot the same person 9 times.
    Yes, the officer who was "in charge" of the call at that point, the one out front was the one who shot. That makes complete sense. If all 22 shot, the cross fire would kill everyone.

    As I mentioned before, I feel the first 3 shots were 100% justified. I have no idea about the next 6 because I can't see what is happening inside the bus.
    "Anything is better than lies and deceit". Leo Tolstoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by laurensmom View Post
    Bahahahaha! You have been watching too many police TV shows. In your situation, at least 3 officers would likely be stabbed. And, the officers coming in the back, shot by the ones coming in the front. Carry on.
    If that's the case then the cops are complete idiots.
    They'd have their offender cornered and unless they're shooting blind, there is NO reason all 6 cops would need to shoot at all. Only 1 cop should be assigned to shoot, it wouldn't be a go in and open fire situation. Also, it's my opinion that because the aisles are so thin, the only 2 people at risk of being stabbed would be the cops up front - therefore they should enter with the swat shields.
    Common sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gogomom View Post
    I have seen the videos, watched the news reports and read the articles.

    From the very first time I saw the initial video I was shocked and horrified that the police didn't seem to attempt to defuse the situation in any way.

    I expect the police to act to keep the public safe. I include that troubled young man (with no history of violent behavour) as part of the public.

    There is a certain amount of danger that comes with being a police officer, and I would hope that all officers know that before they join a police force.

    Before watching the video I wouldn't have thought that a police officer would have shot a man with a knife 9 times, out of fear for his own safety. If this is indeed "procedure" for the police - I think maybe procedure should be changed.
    Why not?

    A person with a knife can travel about 21 feet in 2 seconds. It takes at least 3 seconds for an officer to draw and fire his gun 1 time. If the gun is already drawn it takes 2 seconds to decide and fire at a moving target. You'd be lucky to get off 1 shot, maybe 2 before the person got to you. A knife will puncture right through the "bullet proof vest". When a person with a knife advances toward a person who is less than 21 feet away they will likely stab them. I think people are under some false impression that a knife is "just a knife". A knife is a dangerous weapon. Just ask that guy on the Greyhound in BC.....oh wait, you can't, because he had his head sawed off.

    How many people here can say they have tried to retreat and fire at a man advancing toward them with a gun? I can.
    Last edited by laurensmom; 07-31-2013 at 11:04 AM.
    "Anything is better than lies and deceit". Leo Tolstoy

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