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    Default Those Greedy, Lazy Teachers

    Those Greedy, Lazy Teachers | It's Dilovely

    Great blog post.

    For all the teachers, and people who love to go on about those rotten teachers.

    BUT, when you get to Matt Damon, don't read past him! Just don't.

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    Good read! Thanks
    Catherine
    Mama of 2 wonderful Children,
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    The main point of this article seems to be against back-to-work legislation.
    For the government to say, “Agree to these non-negotiable terms, or we'll legislate and force you to agree,” is insulting and degrading, not to mention undemocratic.
    I agree that teachers are important and our kids need to go to school. Should strikes always be allowed to go on indefinitely? I say no. I say we need mediators to determine if there is a genuine reason why the employees should not be back to work. The only time I feel that unions should be allowed to assert their power over the employers is if it is a matter of safety or greed (ie. employees are underpaid). Mediators should be able to determine these things.
    Last edited by Liisa; 09-18-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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    My SIL posted this on her FB last week. Good read.

    I have mixed feelings on the strike issue but that aside, I think it's awful that the government can just legislate things away and force them into a new contract. I'm probably not wording that right.

    I think the extra-curriculars only come up because teachers are trying to show how much they do to justify their current wages, etc. I was not aware until a few months ago that they do not have short-term disability and have to use those accumulated sick days for situations such as that. I see why something is necessary. I think it might be better for everyone to get some kind of STD plan added on to their benefits and THEN look at cutting back the number of annual paid sick days. I don't see how they can just chop them and cut wages and think everything will work out A-OK. The teachers agreed to a wage freeze but the gov't wants more. Sooo, as a result, if their pay is going to be CUT why should they continue to voluntarily give up their own family/personal time if the gov't does not see it as valuable? I get that.

    I fully support the teachers.



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    I loved her blog post.
    The poster formerly known as Geomamma

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    Were you also aware that in a previous collective agreement the teachers agree to give up their 4% vacation pay (which all Ontario Workers are entitled too) in exchange for the 20 sick days? They do not recieve vacation pay. Yes they have time off, but there is not “vacation pay“ ... AND that the governmeny SAVES money by doing this? I believe it was approx $8000 per teacher by retirement. Now by voiding the previous collective agreements the teachers shold thus be entitled to the same s the rest of Ontarians and it will ctually increase the costs because you can bet every teacher WILL take their full 10 dys, which means 10 days of supply techer per techer as well, AND the 4% on top of that. Just food for thought when they talk sick dys becuse while I knew they had no short term nd that alone seemed to balance it IMO I did not know this tid bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn View Post
    Were you also aware that in a previous collective agreement the teachers agree to give up their 4% vacation pay (which all Ontario Workers are entitled too) in exchange for the 20 sick days? They do not recieve vacation pay. Yes they have time off, but there is not “vacation pay“ ... AND that the governmeny SAVES money by doing this? I believe it was approx $8000 per teacher by retirement. Now by voiding the previous collective agreements the teachers shold thus be entitled to the same s the rest of Ontarians and it will ctually increase the costs because you can bet every teacher WILL take their full 10 dys, which means 10 days of supply techer per techer as well, AND the 4% on top of that. Just food for thought when they talk sick dys becuse while I knew they had no short term nd that alone seemed to balance it IMO I did not know this tid bit.
    I am sorry, but it is not apples to apples. I am not teacher bashing, I don't agree with what was done in the legislature. I also need to understand the math. Let's take a elementry teacher salary of $65000 (which is probably average in Ontario, but I don't know for sure).

    School is about 40 weeks per year
    The school day is 6.5 hours long
    1300 paid hours
    $50 / hour

    Let's be real and say teachers work an average of 8 hours per day (although not in their CA).
    1600 hours per year
    $40 per hour worked

    A 'entry level' management role in the private sector (no paid OT, but definitely required) making $65000, 40 hour work week 2080 hours per year, with 4 weeks paid vacation = 31.25 / hour including vacation pay. Probably 5-10 days paid sick time and probably a STD plan.

    A teacher gets approximately 12 weeks off (if we think about it being paid), we compare to the equivalent in the private sector (2080 hours per year), teachers make 31.25/ hour and have 12 weeks off.

    If teachers were paid 4% on top of the $65000 salary that would be an aditional $2600 per year. We can't compare teacher salaries with hourly paid positions that get the 4% on top of wages. Salaried pay is based on the year and includes vacation pay and the employee is entitled to take 2 weeks off paid or more depending on company policy (equal to 4% of salary). Making 65000 as a salary is not 65000 plus vacation pay.

    Teachers can also use their sick days for family related illnesses (in some boards), so if your mother is ill and you need time off, you can use your sick time. Not the case in many private sector companies. Sick time is for personal illness only.

    I sympathize with the teacher situation and I don't like what has happened, but I also don't think arguments like the one above do anything to garner support for teachers. I fully respect what teachers are doing and I appreciate their hard work and dedication.
    Last edited by Pomegranate; 09-18-2012 at 01:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pomegranate View Post
    I am sorry, but it is not apples to apples. I am not teacher bashing, I don't agree with what was done in the legislature. I also need to understand the math. Let's take a elementry teacher salary of $65000 (which is probably average in Ontario, but I don't know for sure).

    School is about 40 weeks per year
    The school day is 6.5 hours long
    1300 paid hours
    $50 / hour

    Let's be real and say teachers work an average of 8 hours per day (although not in their CA).
    1600 hours per year
    $40 per hour worked

    A 'entry level' management role in the private sector (no paid OT, but definitely required) making $65000, 40 hour work week 2080 hours per year, with 4 weeks paid vacation = 31.25 / hour including vacation pay. Probably 5-10 days paid sick time and probably a STD plan.

    A teacher gets approximately 12 weeks off (if we think about it being paid), we compare to the equivalent in the private sector (2080 hours per year), teachers make 31.25/ hour and have 12 weeks off.

    If teachers were paid 4% on top of the $65000 salary that would be an aditional $2600 per year. We can't compare teacher salaries with hourly paid positions that get the 4% on top of wages. Salaried pay is based on the year and includes vacation pay and the employee is entitled to take 2 weeks off paid (equal to 4% of salary). Making 65000 as a salary is not 65000 plus vacation pay.

    Teachers can also use their sick days for family related illnesses (in some boards), so if your mother is ill and you need time off, you can use your sick time. Not the case in the private sector. Sick time is for personal illness only.

    I sympathize with the teacher situation and I don't like what has happened, but I also don't think arguments like the one above do anything to garner support for teachers.
    this^^^

    It is one of those things where you work and have the things you have and then maybe don't realize how great you have it and want more. All employees are like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn View Post
    Were you also aware that in a previous collective agreement the teachers agree to give up their 4% vacation pay (which all Ontario Workers are entitled too) in exchange for the 20 sick days? They do not recieve vacation pay. Yes they have time off, but there is not “vacation pay“ ... AND that the governmeny SAVES money by doing this? I believe it was approx $8000 per teacher by retirement. Now by voiding the previous collective agreements the teachers shold thus be entitled to the same s the rest of Ontarians and it will ctually increase the costs because you can bet every teacher WILL take their full 10 dys, which means 10 days of supply techer per techer as well, AND the 4% on top of that. Just food for thought when they talk sick dys becuse while I knew they had no short term nd that alone seemed to balance it IMO I did not know this tid bit.
    But a supply is most often needed when a teacher takes a sick day so the government is then paying a supply, the government isn't just collecting extra money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pomegranate View Post
    I am sorry, but it is not apples to apples. I am not teacher bashing, I don't agree with what was done in the legislature. I also need to understand the math. Let's take a elementry teacher salary of $65000 (which is probably average in Ontario, but I don't know for sure).

    School is about 40 weeks per year
    The school day is 6.5 hours long
    1300 paid hours
    $50 / hour

    Let's be real and say teachers work an average of 8 hours per day (although not in their CA).
    1600 hours per year
    $40 per hour worked

    A 'entry level' management role in the private sector (no paid OT, but definitely required) making $65000, 40 hour work week 2080 hours per year, with 4 weeks paid vacation = 31.25 / hour including vacation pay. Probably 5-10 days paid sick time and probably a STD plan.

    A teacher gets approximately 12 weeks off (if we think about it being paid), we compare to the equivalent in the private sector (2080 hours per year), teachers make 31.25/ hour and have 12 weeks off.

    If teachers were paid 4% on top of the $65000 salary that would be an aditional $2600 per year. We can't compare teacher salaries with hourly paid positions that get the 4% on top of wages. Salaried pay is based on the year and includes vacation pay and the employee is entitled to take 2 weeks off paid (equal to 4% of salary). Making 65000 as a salary is not 65000 plus vacation pay.

    Teachers can alos use their sick days for family related illnesses (in some boards), so if your mother is ill and you need time off, you can use your sick time. Not the case in the private sector. Sick time is for personal illness only.

    I sympathize with the teacher situation and I don't like what has happened, but I also don't think arguments like the one above do anything to garner support for teachers.
    Yes. I was doing the math on it as well. A similar scenario as you just did.
    I support both sides. I don't like what the government just did, but I do still think teachers are going over board. And I know there are teachers (a few family and a few friends) who know they have it a little too well. And these are the same teachers that are running the extra curricular programs, not just doing the minimums.

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    I thought supply teachers came out of the teachers pocket, like somehow deducted off their pay. I could be wrong - maybe that's after you've used all your sick days. And, if you have a supply you still have to prep all the stuff for them to do that day. And, then you have to fix whatever didn't happen that day you were away, which eats up more time. All while you feel like junk.

    I think most teacher take their sick days when they're darn near death. It's too much work to take them otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinUp View Post
    I thought supply teachers came out of the teachers pocket, like somehow deducted off their pay. I could be wrong - maybe that's after you've used all your sick days. And, if you have a supply you still have to prep all the stuff for them to do that day. And, then you have to fix whatever didn't happen that day you were away, which eats up more time. All while you feel like junk.

    I think most teacher take their sick days when they're darn near death. It's too much work to take them otherwise.
    I *could* be wrong but I don't think they have to pay for a supply unless they are NOT taking a sick day.

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    Pay for a supply or take a day unpaid? There is a difference, legally and theoretically (top pay teachers make way more then a supply).

    I don't begrudge anyone for taking sick days when they need them and requesting unpaid time off when needed as well. I don't like how a particular teacher I know says things like, “What do I do when my kid is sick? I take a sick day. When my mom was sick, I took sick days.“ One abuser does not make a profession, but it really puts a bad taste in my mouth. If my kids are sick, I take an unpaid day, if my mom was sick and I needed time off, it would be unpaid, if approved. So, no I don't want to seem like I have 'benefit' envy, as I don't want to be a teacher. I just want everyone to understand the deal isn't so bad. The way the gov't is handling it is horrendous, but the deal isn't bad. There is a point in time where benefits level off for everyone.

    If we take the auto industry, we can all see what happens when collective agreements get very generous when the going is good, and then when times are tough they get really tough.

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    This is the blog post I ws referring to. It explains it better than I do ... clearly What I get is that they used to recieve this and AGREED in thier collective agreement to substitute it out for the 20 sick days which could be banked. In the end of a 30 year career it saved the governement approx $8000 per techer. Now it would cost the government MORE because there is no incentive for teachers to not take the days which means they will take them all ... plus since they voided the agreement the techers would be entitled to that 4% gain since the trade off is no longer applicable. Anyway I will stop talking and you can red the numbers



    Ontario Teachers Education Station: Anti-Teacher Argument #4- Sick Days
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    The blog posted is from BC, right (unless I read that wrong)? It doesn't really discuss the specifics of the Ontario teachers' gripes but generally covers what the blogger feels is the general opinion of the public about teachers and unions.

    (ETA; re-read and I see she does talk about Ontario quite a bit)

    However, to relate it to the current happenings in London, if that is truly how the public see them, then I feel that by cutting extra-curricular programs the teachers are only going to further alienate the public from their cause.
    Last edited by Liisa; 09-18-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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    Yes, it explains it quite well. I still completely disagree with the idea that teachers are not paid vacation pay. In the bloggers math, if the teacher's salry does not include vacation pay, then the teacher making 74,000 / year, makes 56.92/ hour (at 1300 hours/ year 6.5 hour work day) or to be generous 46.25 /hour (at 1600 hours per year, 8 hour work day).

    No matter how you slice this benefit of sick days or vacation pay (or whatever you choose to call it), IMO, it is over the top generous.

    I want teachers to have paid sick days or even call them peronal days to use as needed (personal illness, family illness, lawyer appt etc) to a max of 10 per year, no carryover no payout. I also want teachers to have a STD plan because it makes sense.
    Last edited by Pomegranate; 09-18-2012 at 03:14 PM.

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